No More Amp Heads with TRADEMARK names or logos PLEASE

[atalwar]

Very well said Dave,

for anyone who wants to dive a bit deep into this stuff take a look at Gibson Vs PRS case for SingleCut.
The Ruling eventually went in favor for PRS (but after lot of years of stopped production) ,
however had PRS also used Gibson's logo (hypothetically), there ain't much of a question that the ruling would have been in for Gibson and case would have been over in a matter of days instead of years.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/pre ... t_prs.html

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/ind ... s_prs.html

Several Morals could be derived from the above case.

[Leirbagpdl]

Very interesting.
I was reading the code of industrial property in my country, not unlike the laws of the rest of the world as there are international agreements on coordination of laws in this area.

As well said by Mr. Dave, you may not reproduce or imitate the brand in a product so as to confuse the consumer. This is the main point of the use of trademarks.

The other two main points are:
Product counterfeiting/false advertising
Unfair competition and related interpretations.

With amp modelers it gets a little blurry. First because the companies do not have the property of sound waves - thats the case of IR based on famous brands.
Second the amp modelers offer a way for you to achieve a particular sound. It is not offered the product which is itself and notoriously characterized by the peculiar sound.
Therefore, offering a product that says "sound like the original/realone" "based on" is not to say "is the original" . But it has to be made clear to the consumer. (Even the amp companies that have a amp modelers cannot estrictly say "its the real thing, because fisicallly it's not).

It's like a company A to offer green. Another (company B) offers blue and yellow and says that if you mix the two you can get something green. The greens may be similar, but are essentially different. It only may harm if campany B sell the mix saying "it's real green, its better thans A's green...."as I will explain later.

From what I know and see, we( the headmakers, only) could even be framed in such a case of infringiment (hypothetically GAM too, for providing the access to it/store it - If GAM had chosen to risk maintaining it as it was. - , but depends, also, on the law of the country which Gam is hosted). But we are not charging and not taking anyadvantage of the brands. In fact, we could only be held liable because, potentially, we could confuse people but even so, for it, but for this it is necessary that it characterized the deliberate intention to deceive, intentionally mislead the consumerto the wrong way . And It is not product counterfeiting/false advertising because we are not selling this thigs as real amps (or selling at all) nor claiming any relationship with the owners of the trademark.

BUT as we can see nor Acmebargig or GAM, supports, encourages or suggests that, either officially or unofficially. For sure Acmebargig would never distributing or using the trademark's companies and skins w/ logos that was created for us of in their products, and never ask or asked any kind of money for that.

Still, it is quite reasonable "fear" that GAM may feel about it.

We still need to clarify some things about this subject:

Here the "fair use" is only allowed to quote, in speeches, scientific or literary or other publication without commercial character and without detriment to the distinctive character of the mark. Not unlike the rest of the world as I said before.

The distinctiveness of the mark, ( the things that the owner intended to be represented by it) is, in turn, important for the meaning of "unfair competition". ( I do not know if this is the equivalent term in english)

"Unfair competition" occurs when it is denigrated the image of the competition, or the product in its various forms. It may be false claims, theft of clients, advertising similar to cause confusion, repackaging, falsely claiming trademark use license, product counterfeiting/false advertising etc.

At this point enters the example of Ken, about a" booger"amp in the same advertisement with some mesa boogie real amp.

That does not enter in the legal definition of "fair use" but something at the same level of blind tests of beer, what, here, is called "comparative advertising".

The comparative advertising is clouded because it provides the possibility of lawsuits if the company discredit or denigrate the products of its competitors. That's because this type of marketing must be done within the legal and ethical boundaries of business and advertising.

This leads to what is defined as "trade dress" and the "parasitic competition" (especific forms of Unfair competition)

"Trade dress" is when a product is similar in its packaging with another product from another company (also applies to brands)

"parasitc competition" Is when some product takes advantage of the existence of the another for its own sales, primarily because of the similarity of appearance.

Even in the world of amp companies themselves, it is blurred. All amps are modifications developments and experiments each other. I remember a review that came out in Guitar Player in December 1996. A shootout of 19 amps and a meeting between the engineers of the most famous companies. : Many at the time did not care to have been mere copies or modifications;

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-17741238.html

In the amp modeling world can we say that is essentially a parasitic competition?????

Yes. Every amp modeler owes its survival based on the physical existence of amps that produce a certain characteristic tone.

But is another product as i said before. You're not selling the real deal. You're selling your product and the product can achieve some characterístics sounds.

Still, make a comparative test, even just to compare the sound quality in advertising can bring legal problems. I do not recommend doing this officially.

It can be argued that skins would be "trade dress"?

Not since skins themselves are only similar images and not the amp itself. If it has no copyrighted logo its ok. Moreover, all known amps modelers have skins with similarities to the amps modeled.You cannot say that the image of a anti-slip steel plate is an exclusive boogie for exemple.

The PRS X Gibson case was cool ( thanks atalwar).
I personally, too, see much difference between the use of industrial technologies with the use of brands .. The design of something physical, which interferes in the use and characteristics of the product I would consider as an "invention" or "utility model", which has another legal treatment inm my country". If I were the judge, the PRS would have lost
= P.

Thank you.

[Ken McLaren]

Thanks Leirbagpdl for looking into that. Much appreciated..
So, essentially, the buiilders that are using trademarked skins essentially have no protection, which is what I assumed, and.. Identifying a plugin head, even without using a trademark image, still has no protections. So if for example, the head was to be identified as being someone's personal representation of a VOX AC30, then simply using the Name VOX AC30 could lead to legal troubles for the builder. I had that assumption as well..

Interesting...

Great points from Dave too..

[Leirbagpdl]

Yes, we have to cover our asses. If you read through the jamvox user's guide, or peavey MK3's so you will not see direct references to the modeled amps that they do not have the trademark registration. But for example. if you model a JCM 800 can refer to a "classic sound of a Britsh amp that has "800 sounds", an give any cool name like Lepoul Hybrit =),"
The AmpliTube manual, on the other hand makes direct reference about which products they used as a base along with the disclaimer( it's kind of risk, but they must have expensive lawyers.....). but in body of the head or in the nomenclature of the amp is not allowed, since it can cause confusion.
The Overloud, in turn, chose not to take any risks and has no reference whatsoever about any amp.
I sent an email to Mr. Dalton regarding this issue.
=)

[Leirbagpdl]

Damn! You are fast!!!!, I just sent you an email with the subject

=)

[sandbox~sultan]

There has been much said here, all of it important and valid...and if we all think about the big picture,
then of course, the correct action will be taken.

But how about some GOOD news for all us: Ken, please release the fully functional Head Case
so we can all get to making music. I am ready to buy and put it to good use.

[Ken McLaren]

There has been much said here, all of it important and valid...and if we all think about the big picture,
then of course, the correct action will be taken.

But how about some GOOD news for all us: Ken, please release the fully functional Head Case
so we can all get to making music. I am ready to buy and put it to good use.

I am pretty sure there is no one on earth that wants to release this more than I. haha Throughout the development we have missed interviews and press wih large magazines, We have missed head case being used oln a major CD release. I can't even tell you how many huge promotional opportunities we have missed because we didn't feel we were ready to release. We are paying pretty close attention to a lot of details, and some of those details probably don't matter, but in the end we know we have done absolutely everything we can think of in order to get it right. Even little things like making sure that if you have a Steinberg product installed, the install program returns the VST plugins path so you don't have to type it in.

I have to say though, we are as ready as we have ever been. Just a few more simple fixes, (a new one was reported today) finish the videos, and the asylum to go and we're good. We have also just secured a publishing deal for the manual as well as any other printed head case material. That was another thing we had to do and wait for.. So yes there will be a full 600-1200 page head case mnanual available. (600 -1200 pages because I really don't know how large it will be)..

[atalwar]

hmm. maybe make it a stereo pair manual 600 pages each , that could also act as thick speaker vibrations isolator... j/k

[Ken McLaren]

I'm vibratinfg just thinking about the amount of work..

[sandbox~sultan]

I for one appreciate all of the hard work and dedication of the Acme Bar Gig staff.

[Ken McLaren]

Thanks sandbox..
There were a lot of times where we got discoraged when things didn't work like they were supposed to, but just keep going and never look back, sooner or later you arrive at your destination..

[Tetragammatone]

Tetragammatone - I just had to go through and EDIT numerous posts from you - I was hoping you would be DECENT and do it yourself. My AVATAR is a photo of an Amp I own.

[Tetragammatone]

Tetragammatone - I just had to go through and EDIT numerous posts from you - I was hoping you would be DECENT and do it yourself. My AVATAR is a photo of an Amp I own.

Man, I'm really sorry for all those stupid things I wrote then, posts edited. Please forgive me guys if anyone felt abused...

[strangedogs]

no problem Bud. We're all musicians and we're all a bit crazy at times 'eh. We're cool.