About the RedWirez interface in Shred 1.5x

[Flaming]

Thank You Grem for the heads up!!!

I've tried this new version today and it is getting better and better!!! Great work!!!

Sorry Flaming, I wish you were around earlier in this development I would have had time to implement more of your suggestions because they are really quite good..

Well, you could add them in future updates, could you? ? ?

Because I have a few more ideas!

I really like the "properties" button and the red box with the level, pan and ambience-mix sliders appearing!
Could you make that part in the same way that the speaker selector for cone, edge, cap, etc?
I mean, when you move over your mouse in the "properties" word, then the red box with the sliders appears, you make your settings and when you mouse over outside the red box, then it dissapears and only left the word properties? ? ?
I think it would be easier to use that way!

The info besides the mic name is wonderful! Could you put it in both "slots" IRs? ? ?

Could you put a % numerical value readout for the mixer for the tonal correction too? ? ?

By the way, what does the "dual tracking" button do? ? ? I guess it puts the plug in from mono to stereo mode, but I hear or see no difference at all. Both in mono tracks and stereo tracks. Am I deaf and blind? ? ? It is very possible...

I was thinking in this:

If the Dual tracking button puts the plug in in mono or stereo, then when in stereo mode (dual tracking active) everything should work as it is now.
But, when you put the plug in mono (default as it is now with dual tracking button off), then both pan sliders should be set at 100% left. Because in a mono track we use only the left channel or the left side of the stereo field as input. Although you hear the sound from both speakers.
Now, in mono mode, if you move the pan slider to the right channel you are losing signal until you set it 100% right, and you have no sound at all. As I understand that's the way mono channels work.
So, the idea would be that when the plug in is in mono (dual tracking off), both pan sliders should be positioned and fixed (or "grayed out) to 100% left, but in the readout should be written "centered", as you always hear the sound from both sides of the stereo field.

And the idea of "independant or combined levels" from my previous post should work only when the plug in is in mono mode. Sometimes you will have freedom the put both IRs to 100% of its own level. But I guess in general, you want to mix them setting one IR to let's say 70% and the othe one (the rest of whole level headroom) in this case 30% to the IR 2. So in "combined level mode" this will be done automatically only adjusting one level slider.

Thank You Very Much Ken for this plug in!!!

[Ken McLaren]

Well first let me say you are totally welcome..It was my pleasure to create it, I mean who would not want to play guitar all day..haha Right?..

Anyways, the dual tracking, I can see how you are thinking about it and what you say makes sense, however, the dual tracking button works on input only. Its an input routing mechanism. So, if you are sending one track to iFace, then dual tracking mode has no effect on the sound whether the button is on or off. It takes the left signal and splits it, it sends one half to the right cab, and one half to the left cab, (you still have stereo out). When you turn dual tracking on, it takes the left input and routes it to the left cab only, likewise, it takes the right cab and routes it to the right cab only. The pans work the same either way...This way you can have complete control as to where in the stereo spectrum you want to locate a cab, independent of whether you have 2 tracks or 1 going into iFace..

The properties button...
iFace used to do that using the mouse over event, but sometimes we did not get the events right and you were stuck with the thing open. I want to revisit that though...I put your point on off selection in the Tonal correction EQ now too for the new commercial Littany cabs. There is 4 colour coded buttons that control which point on the EQ is turned on or off..and, we are looking into making them selectable filters as well. We can sort of team up and use some development time from something else to do it. We wanted to have some selectable filters on our 64 band Mastering EQ.

The numerical % for tonal correction...Yeah we do need that...It was in there at one time...

The info besides the mic name..Yep for the commercial version,and I'd like to do one for the Cabinets and speakers too, but I just don't have time to do the research...

Thanks for your support man, its appreciated..
KM

[Flaming]

The pans work the same either way...This way you can have complete control as to where in the stereo spectrum you want to locate a cab, independent of whether you have 2 tracks or 1 going into iFace..

I don't get it quite well yet. When in mono mode, if you use a mono track, you are only using the left side of the stereo field as input, the pan level does not let you move the sound in the stereo field. It only sounds when it is fully at 100% left for both IRs. If you move the slider to the right then you lose signal until you set it at 100% right and have no sound at all. (boths IRs)
So, the pan slider in mono mode is like a volume or level but no panning at all.
That's why I suggest to put it at 100% left for both IRs slots and fixed, otherwise they don't sound, or they sound at a low volume if they are not set at 100% left.
Or am I missing something in front of my eyes?!?!

The info besides the mic name..Yep for the commercial version,and I'd like to do one for the Cabinets and speakers too, but I just don't have time to do the research...

Wow, that would really be fantastic for the commercial version!

Thanks for your support man, its appreciated..
KM

You're welcome Ken! You can think of me as an extra tester for this plug in!!! I really like it!!! So, I will be writting my thoughts, questions and ideas about it if you don't mind!

[Ken McLaren]

I definitely don't mind..

OK, So when you put iFace on a mono track, you're saying the Pans don't work...haha Now I'm confused..
KM

[Flaming]

OK, So when you put iFace on a mono track, you're saying the Pans don't work...haha Now I'm confused..
KM

That's exactly what I'm saying! In that case the pan slider works as a volume or level slider and does not move the sound to left or right. The sound remains always centered.
The only way to move the sound to left or right is moving the pan slider inside your mono channel in your DAW, but not with the pan slider in the plugin itself.
That's why I suggest when in mono mode to put or fixed the pan sliders at 100% left for both IRs slots and in the readout written "centered".

I guess now that the "correct" mode of working would be that the pan sliders in mono channels in mono mode let you move the sound to left or right also, am I right? ? ?

Is there a way to capture your screen and sound and save it as a video file? ? ? I will look for it right now to make a video "demonstration".

Or tell me what info you need from my pc set up...

[Alu]

That's exactly what I'm saying! In that case the pan slider works as a volume or level slider and does not move the sound to left or right. The sound remains always centered.

I don't understand why you guys are surprised about this (although Flaming seems to already know it from what I've gathered from his posts)...
The routing/panning is managed by the DAW and you can't touch it with a plugin on a mono track.

It's simple: when a channel is mono has only one input (Left channel input) and one output (Left channel output). If you try to pan the sound inside a plugin, you just put part of the signal into the right channel ("stealing" it from the left) which doesn't have an output. That's why you hear the volume going down while you pan to right.

Example:
pan 100% left = 100% left output = 100% output signal
pan 50% left + 50% right = 50% output, because the right channel doesn't exist
pan 100% right = 0% output, because the right channel doesn't exist

Panning is managed by the DAW channel settings.

[Ken McLaren]

OK...I looked into this and here is a play by play...
-Added a track in reaper
-Added a Head
-Added iface
-Got a reasonable tone
-Went into iFace
-Made sure that the left cab and right cab sounded totally different to each other, one was thin, one was thick.
-Recorded some chords
-Pressed playback and adjusted the pan for the left and right cabs, they panned anywhere I wanted them in the stereo spectrum. This was without dual tracking.
Are you both getting something different? The pans don't work? If so then I would like to understand why this is not working for you?

@Flaming a video would be extremely helpful..

KM

[Flaming]

Thank You Alu for your info!

I was sure about the normal working of a mono signal, but I could be wrong.

So backing to the main point again I paste my previous idea about the panning and levels:

Code: Select all

If the Dual tracking button puts the plug in in mono or stereo, then when in stereo mode (dual tracking active) everything should work as it is now.
But, when you put the plug in mono (default as it is now with dual tracking button off), then both pan sliders should be set at 100% left. Because in a mono track we use only the left channel or the left side of the stereo field as input. Although you hear the sound from both speakers.
Now, in mono mode, if you move the pan slider to the right channel you are losing signal until you set it 100% right, and you have no sound at all. As I understand that's the way mono channels work.
So, the idea would be that when the plug in is in mono (dual tracking off), both pan sliders should be positioned and fixed (or "grayed out) to 100% left, but in the readout should be written "centered", as you always hear the sound from both sides of the stereo field.

And the idea of "independant or combined levels" from my previous post should work only when the plug in is in mono mode. Sometimes you will have freedom the put both IRs to 100% of its own level. But I guess in general, you want to mix them setting one IR to let's say 70% and the othe one (the rest of whole level headroom) in this case 30% to the IR 2. So in "combined level mode" this will be done automatically only adjusting one level slider.

Saludos!!!

[ac1176]

Hi Ken,

I'm really impressed by this plugin. I think it's brilliant that I can try out multiple IR's of the same cab just by dragging the "mic" around the screen, so much easier than scrolling through file listings and dropdown menus. The tonal correction and IR mixer are handy features to have aswell. And the fact that it's all self-contained in one plugin is also a winner. I've spent many hours so far just messing around with the free Redwirez Marshall 1960A IR set.

I'd love to be able to create IR libraries of my own mics/cabs using similar "parametised" methods as the Redwirez libraries (mikes at various distances, on/off axis, dustcap/cap edge/cone centre/cone edge etc). Would there be any possibility of adding an option in the iFace for importing user IR libraries assuming they were created following some kind of "standardised" format? Again, it's the ability to drag the "mic" around the "cab" that I find the most appealing for this kind of thing. As much as enjoy experimenting with cab IR files, I find having to run multiple instances of convolution plugins, EQ's, manually selecting files etc really clunky. The iFace is a real gem IMHO, and makes the whole thing so much easier.

Cheers.

[AZMully]

Shred 1.5x is my new favorite toy. Awesome tones!! Now, we need a presets thread here for it. I've create a few already...

[Alu]

OK...I looked into this and here is a play by play...
-Added a track in reaper
-Added a Head
-Added iface
-Got a reasonable tone
-Went into iFace
-Made sure that the left cab and right cab sounded totally different to each other, one was thin, one was thick.
-Recorded some chords
-Pressed playback and adjusted the pan for the left and right cabs, they panned anywhere I wanted them in the stereo spectrum. This was without dual tracking.
Are you both getting something different? The pans don't work? If so then I would like to understand why this is not working for you?

@Flaming a video would be extremely helpful..

KM

I may be wrong, but this is what I've gathered:

Reaper handles channels differently compared to Cubase.
When you add a track in Cubase you can choose between stereo and mono, while in reaper you can just "add a track" without any specifics about routing. Then you can tweak the "IO" options for the routing, but the track is always treated as stereo, or so it seems.
This would explain why it works in Reaper and not in Cubase when selecting "mono track". If you use a "stereo track" in Cubase it should work as expected.

[Flaming]

In stereo tracks it works as expected (I can confirm that in Cubase and in Studio One), that's why I said leave it as it is (in stereo), but in mono it does not work as in stereo mode.

I've tested in cubase 5.1.2 and in Studio One 1.5.2 and it is the same in both DAWs
I've got the video capture.

Where do I have to upload to see the video right here in the forum? ? ?

Otherwise I'll have to upload as a common file to rapidshare-not-allowed or the like...

[Ken McLaren]

Yes Alu you are correct. So, I'll make sure that is noted in the manual. We are and have always been very Reaper oriented as they are the daw company closest to the same set of values we believe in.

So, Stereo track for the PANS to work..

KM

[Flaming]

Here it is the video file. That's is how it works in mono channels:

http://hotfile.com/dl/81773371/16ac400/iFace_Mono_Channels.avi.html

The video image resolution is 1440x900, so you will see every detail in my set up!
It is only 19MB.

Look at the beggining, I show my audio card showing my line input. Both left and right inputs are fed with my guitar.

Then I select a mono channel in S1, set the plug ins and record. Don't pay attention to the playing!!!

Look that when both IRs are 100% left (full sound for both) the audio channel clips, obviously!
That's why I asked you a combined level for mono mode. When one is at 80% the other one is at 20%, so no clip will occur!

The IR that is set 100% to the right has no sound coming from it. If both are 100% to the right there's no sound at all.
The pan slider acts as a volume slider in mono channels. No panning at all is performed.

At the end, I show that the only way to pan a mono track is by its channel pan slider from the DAW, not from the plugin!

[Ken McLaren]

Wow I was so focussed on the discussion with Alu and flaming I missed the other posts, sorry ac1176 and AZMully...

@ac1176
Yes in fact we have a whole cabinet and room ambience package coming. It will consist of many vst plugs to choose from. We are taking this modular approach because there is no point in someone buying something they will never use. So, keep the development costs down and in turn send that savings to the customer right?

iFace for redwirez
iFace for Recab
and maybe iFace for ownhammer
own hammer seems to be one of the new rising stars in the guitar cab field.

There is also Litany. Litany contains filter cabs as well as 3d room modeling and support for a new up and coming room IR lib. You can essentially place the cab AND mic anywhere in the room you want and there will be an IR file that represents that mic location, and that cab location. There will also be some pseudo modeling involved as well.
Here is a rough screenshot of the Litany Cabs 3d room. The cab and mic image will change, I am still waiting for their delivery.


And finally there is Jumble. Jumble will be based on iFace, but, each term in the filename is customizable. A file definition is loaded and that tells Jumble what part of the filename represents what control.
So, say you have a an IR with a filename like this..

Boogie-4x12-G12-414-CAP-on-3in.wav

Each term is delimited in this case by a '-', The Jumble IR Definition file would look something like this.
Fldr
Subfolder
Subfolder
Subfolder
MICPOS = Cap, Cap Edge, Cone, Cone Edge, Between
AXIS = ON, OFF45,OFF30,OFF60
DIST = 1in,2in,3in,4in,5in,6in,7in,8in,9in,10in,11in,OneFoot, 6feet, 12feet

There are Major terms and minor terms, Major represents a folder name, minor represents a control on the interface.

MICPOS
Is the little speaker that allows you to select where on the speaker the mic is positioned. In iFace for Redwirez its red..So Jumble will read in the MICPOS settings and determine there are 5 potential positions. It will set itself up to jump between 5 places on the speaker control. The first setting always represents a mic being placed on the cap, after that it is up to you how many positions are available and what files are loaded for each position. When cap is selected, Jumble will load the file that has 'Cap' in the 5th spot in the filename. Its up to the cab lib maker to ensure that these files exist, Jumble will just do nothing if the file does not exist.

AXIS
Is the same as MICPOS except that if there is not any Off Axis mics in the folder, then the yellow LED will not display. Everything else works the same way as MICPOS though...

DIST
This is the same as MICPOS except it works on the mic being slid towards and away from the cabinet

Each of these terms can have 15 positions associated with them and any ambient files you have, if they are placed in the ambient folder they will be available for use...

Its a pretty simple setup really so my hope is that as more Cab IR libs become available, people start making these definition files for them...

So, in answer to your question, yes we're already on it..
KM

[Ken McLaren]

Flaming, I think we need to identify that pans only work on stereo tracks. Which makes sense actually. Just like recording 2 mono tracks then routing them left and right to a stereo track that contains iFace would be the proper way to use dual tracking. If iFace was on a mono track, then you would just get each guitars routing located dead center in iFace. So, it is working as it is supposed to, but what is lacking is notification to the user that the pans only work on stereo tracks..That needs to be dealt with for sure...Even just a label that says stereo tracks only under the pan control, and a mention in the manual would probably do it. We really can't afford much more development time to get too elaborate with it...

Whatcha think?

[Ken McLaren]

@AZMully, Once we released I think a presets thread would probably be a good idea..

ok i'M Officially blaming GAM for the lateness of this project, I keep getting a "You cannot make another post so soon after your last." message. Then wait, then submit, then "You cannot make another post so soon after your last.", then wait then,"You cannot make another post so soon after your last." haha

[Flaming]

Flaming, I think we need to identify that pans only work on stereo tracks. Which makes sense actually. Just like recording 2 mono tracks then routing them left and right to a stereo track that contains iFace would be the proper way to use dual tracking. If iFace was on a mono track, then you would just get each guitars routing located dead center in iFace. So, it is working as it is supposed to, but what is lacking is notification to the user that the pans only work on stereo tracks..That needs to be dealt with for sure...Even just a label that says stereo tracks only under the pan control, and a mention in the manual would probably do it. We really can't afford much more development time to get too elaborate with it...

Whatcha think?

In stereo tracks it works like a charm! There's no problem there.

I guess that if you can't set a fixed value (without possibility of moving) for pan sliders to 100% left in both IRs slots in mono mode and the "combined levels" for IRs slots, I guess you could make iFace load as default with the settings I wrote (both IRs slots 100% left) and the level of IR slot 2 set to 0 (zero).

So, you load iFace and you are ready to use only one IR (cab) without clipping. If you want to use 2 IRs (cabs) to mix them in a mono track, you have to choose the mic, distance, etc, and raise its volume (level) to mix with the other IR and you will never have to worry about the pan (losing signal), because iFace loaded at 100% left by default.
And explain all these things in the manual.
At least until you can fix it permanently.

What do you think? ? ?

[ac1176]

And finally there is Jumble. Jumble will be based on iFace, but, each term in the filename is customizable. A file definition is loaded and that tells Jumble what part of the filename represents what control.

Jumble sounds exactly like what I'm asking about. So am I right in thinking that if I wrote my own Definition File (probably something simple like a txt file), and named/sorted my IR's according to the Definition File's atributes, Jumble could then use the IR's in the same way as iFace currently does with the free Redwirez library?

[Ken McLaren]

Yes Jumble can do that for sure. Its main design ideas came from the fact that it could be a dedicated IR loader for any of the cab libs out there. It's almost independant of naming conventions, it will just expect things in certain places...
However, after studying our users and how they organize their own personal IR files, the organizational schema that we decided on seems to be the most prevalent. The majority of people sort by cab and then by mic, a lot fewer sort by mic and then cab. Here's the interesting thing though that came out as part of this study. If you are a mix engineer, you are most likely to sort by mic... This is because studio engineers hold their mic collection in a higher regard than their cabinets and rightly so, they use their mics for everything, they use their cabs only for one thing.

Flaming, I can't make up my mind on that so I am going to put it to a vote amongst the Pre-purchase group...We'll see what they have to say.

[Ken McLaren]

Yes Jumble can do that for sure. Its main design ideas came from the fact that it could be a dedicated IR loader for any of the cab libs out there. It's almost independant of naming conventions, it will just expect things in certain places...
However, after studying our users and how they organize their own personal IR files, the organizational schema that we decided on seems to be the most prevalent. The majority of people sort by cab and then by mic, a lot fewer sort by mic and then cab. Here's the interesting thing though that came out as part of this study. If you are a mix engineer, you are most likely to sort by mic... This is because studio engineers hold their mic collection in a higher regard than their cabinets and rightly so, they use their mics for everything, they use their cabs only for one thing.

Flaming, I can't make up my mind on that so I am going to put it to a vote amongst the Pre-purchase group...We'll see what they have to say.

[vicnest]

Sorry for being late.
Kind of busy and got a cold.
Tested on Sonar 8.5 (must run in Administrator mode because the "Set Redwirez Directory" funtion does not work otherwise)

I've always thought Redwirez IR hard to choose due to lots of mic/angle/position/room mics.
You need complex DAW routing to make it sound good and it takes time and resource to do so.
iFace is really quick for experiment.
And it's much faster to get wanted sound+ambience with iFace.
A must-have for Redwirez IR owners.
I like the new tonal correction with custom curves. (more are welcome)
And I miss the "dynamic" button on Shred2. (dial up thick bottom end)

Thanks Ken for making it a standalone cab VST effect.
Will iFace bundle with Redwirez IR?? I see both companies benefit from cooperation.

[Ken McLaren]

No we talked about that and Red 5 Group does not want anyone to get the wrong idea about support, which is totally understandable how people would get that impression. So, I believe they are going to be putting a download link or something on their website that identifies it as strictly made for their libraries. No doubt we are both going to benefit from this, I know of at least 10 people at the forums who never used Redwirez before but are now..

The dynamics knob. Yeah that was one of the casualties of the new Tonal Correction...It just didn't work right anymore with the new TC eq...

Thanks man..
KM

[GonWild]

awesome! iFACE might be just the thing I'm looking for! But I'd want the full version. Where/when can it be bought?
Is it included in Head Case, so if I preorder that one (and get access to the beta) I get iFACE as well? Is it still avaliable as a seperate VST?

[Ken McLaren]

Gon Wild, Yes iFace, Litany, MeCab(Recab interface), and possibly Jumble(We don't have that built yet) are all part of both Head case suites as built in cabinets. They will also be available as separate VST plugs. But for the next little while until we close it, we are including all of them with the pre-purchase. FYI, Our website does not reflect this yet, but Shred 2 has been upgraded to Head case. After the pre-purchase and upon completion, each of these cab convolvers will be 20 dollars US. Each Head case suite will be 26.35($25 + Pay Pal charges=$26.35), Head case reader required for stand alone heads will also be available for $15 US(Not required with the suite, it comes with it). So lots of stuff brewing and as part of the pre-purchase you get every beta of everything included with the suites plus the stand alone) In terms of delivery time, TBH we're quite Anal about the details, so all we can say is there is continual progress being made. We have already gone through at least 10 builds in the pre-purchase group. This is particularly good because with each build we get much needed feedback from the people who are actually using this. It allows us the opportunity to hone in on areas that we alone would never have noticed as problems. In the end it just makes for a better product in the end.